Taking steps to experience and give love

Twanna Henderson: Welcome to T Time Spiritual Conversations: For, With and About Women. I'm your host, Twanna Henderson. And I want to remind you to take a moment and like this podcast and share it with your friends and others in your life. Well, today, we have a very special guest and a very special podcast. Our guest for today is Pastor Michael Henderson. He is not only the senior pastor of New Beginnings Church in Matthews, North Carolina, he also serves as Vice President of National Ministries for Converge and also is a biblical counselor. And more importantly is my husband of 23 years. Pastor Michael, welcome to T Time.

Michael Henderson: Thank you. Thank you, Reverend Twanna; it's good to be on T Time. Finally, I get to come on, thank you.

Twanna Henderson: And guess what, you can just call me Twanna.

Michael Henderson: All right, fine.

Twanna Henderson: Well, to our listeners, you know, we wanted to do this today, because you know, Valentine's Day is coming up, and for the world, it symbolizes a day of love. And so, as we approach this day of love, I thought it would be beneficial if we really took time to delve into the whole idea of love and what it is. So I wanted to share this podcast with my soulmate so that we could tackle this area together. Pastor Michael, you and I have agreed to go through a book this year as a couple as one of our goals. And so principles of the book that we're reading together is what we're going to be basing this discussion on today. The book that we're going to be really referencing is entitled "Loving People: How to Love and Be Loved." written by John Townsend, who is a well-known author and clinical psychologist. So this conversation is important because, believe it or not, we can actually take steps to experience love in our relationships and give love to others. But let's begin with a working definition for this much-misunderstood word, love. Can you just tell us, according to Townsend, what is the definition of love?

Michael Henderson: Thank you, Twanna. I think one of the most misunderstood terms that we wrestle with as it relates to relationships is the word love. And I love what Dr. Townsend has done in his book "Loving People." He simplified it, but it's not a simple term at all. But he's simplified the definition. So that those of us who are trying to wrap our brains around it will be able to understand it. So Dr. Townsend says loving people or showing people love is seeking and doing what is best for the other person. That's a simple definition of seeking and doing what is best for the other person.

Twanna Henderson: Now, that is a simple definition. So let's unpack that. Can you unpack that just a little bit for us?

Michael Henderson: Well, I think the reason that that's so simple yet profound because most people love with angles; they love with ulterior sometimes motives people have. People want something to in order to express love, a lot of times coming up, you'll see children who are special, and they are rewarded based on what they do, and not necessarily who they are. And so we learn how, how to love conditionally. So when we talk about love, real genuine love. And he's really drawing this from the biblical definition of love, genuine love and seeking the best for the other person with no strings attached. And what that looks like is that when I am in a relationship or trying to establish a relationship, my number one goal is to seek out what that person needs and try to be one of those persons that can help facilitate that.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, I really love how he says that, that we love someone, we bend our heart, we bend our mind, and we bend our energies toward the betterment of someone else. And I think yeah, I think the real essence of love is about bending towards the other person. Why do you think it's difficult for some people to love and be loved?

Michael Henderson: Well, he talks about this in the book, and people have loved deficiencies. That's not the term he uses. But essentially, that's what he's saying. And some people are incapable of love because they have never really been genuinely loved. And so where people are, although they may have a heart or an intent to love, they just have never experienced love. And I thought this was profound that he said, so it's really difficult for them to give something they have never received.

Twanna Henderson: That is so true. I mean, I think all of us have in-printings of love. And if we could be a little transparent, can you just talk about what you're in-printings have been, your imprinting of love from your family of origin?

Michael Henderson: Well, that's a good question. Twanna. I was coming up in a large family. My parents were from the deep south; originally, they moved to the Midwest. And back then, you know, they, back in the south, you had children to help out with farming and things like that. My father was the youngest of 18 children. And then he and my mother had eight. And so it was. It was a lot of us running around needing attention, needing love. And there was not, I think, I think they're both their intentions were to love us. But there's just wasn't enough. There were too many of us. And so I didn't really understand love as a child, I really didn't. So, there were definitely things that I missed out on. We had our basic needs met, you know, food, shelter, clothing, those were met. But I didn't have that inner connecting that Townsend talks about, I didn't have that as a child, I didn't know who I was. I was searching for something. I went through a rebellious state seeking. And as I look back on it now, I was just seeking to be seen and to be loved.

Twanna Henderson: Wow, wow. So how did you evolve from that? I mean, because so many of our listeners, you know, have similar situations and similar backgrounds. And, you know, some people, if they aren't able to work through, you know, those issues from the past can stay kind of stuck, you know, as it relates to love. And so, how were you able to evolve? You know, from that?

Michael Henderson: Well, as a teenager, I had a radical conversion experience. And that was my journey of beginning to understand love. I did not understand love. I did; I had not really totally experienced love. And as a teenager, that was once I got converted, I felt this rush of love. I've heard Oprah describe it this way; it was like liquid love going through my whole being. And, and that was for the first time, I think, where I really felt love, but it was a first-person that now I know people love me, but the first person I felt the love from was Christ. That's the first person, and that was as a teenager.

Twanna Henderson: Wow. You know, I think it just lets us know-how, how important that type of love is. And that and it just been the most important thing with that. Can you just kind of talk about what biblical love is?

Michael Henderson: Well, that's a good question, Twanna. And here's the thing, we in the Western world, we are very general as it relates to love. We generally say to use love interchangeably. We'll say I love my dog, I love my cat, I love my car, I love my spouse, and we use the same word for those different objects of love. And certainly, they do not have the same level of intensity. In Greek and Hebrew, Townsend deals with some of this in his book, "Loving People." Its love is more defined, and it's more explicit. And particularly in the Greek language, which is a very explicit language. What you find is you find that the Greeks broke down love and levels of love. And so you start off with probably the lowest level of love, which is what is called Eros. And it is where we get the word erotic. It is the romance love; it is the love attraction, the physical attraction love. Now, don't get me wrong, that love is totally needed and necessary. But if you're going to have it and you're going to maintain a long-lasting relationship, you cannot build a life eros love. It is necessary for the scope of things. But it is not where you want to end up. So eros love, a lot of people get confused because they visit eros love and they feel all of these feelings. And when you've been married one or two or three or five or ten years, you don't have the kind of erotic love that you had; it kind of matures. And sometimes, when people are in the throws of that love maturing, they think I'm out of love. No, your love has matured now. You don't have to have butterflies every day, but you know that you have love, and your love is maturing. So that's Eros. The second love is Storge. It's kind of family love that we all just assumed that the Greek word Storge, we all just assume that when you are in a family, you have that you know you gotta love your family because of their family. And so that's kind of a family love. It is a commitment love; it's important to understand that love is stronger than Eros, it is a family commitment, love, and it is a good love to have because all of us need to be committed to family. The Psalmist says that God sets the solitary, and during this time a year for those who are solitary or single, he says he sets them into families. Now that does not mean that he sets them into marriage. But he sets them into a relationship. And I think that's the thing that people get confused about. You don't have to be in a marriage to experience love. You can experience love by being in genuine, authentic relationships, and Storge is one of those kinds of relationships. Also, the third type of love is the Philia love. It's where we get the English word, Philadelphia or the City of Brotherly Love. It's another level of a kind of friendship love. It's a commitment, love at a different level. We don't choose our family, but we do choose our friends, and we do choose people that we want to have a relationship. So find philia love is a really good love because it is a level of commitment; you are making a choice about who you want in your inner circle and who do you want to begin to open up to. So it is a good love on the way to the ultimate love. And that is what the Bible calls agape love. That is a self-sacrificing love. And I think that's where Dr. Townsend got his definition. It's seeking the welfare of others; it's making the decision that you are going to love people based on a decision not based on how they perform, but based on who you are and how you choose to love them. And so agape love is self-sacrificial love. It is a love where you share and sacrifice, and you have the other person's best interests at heart.

Twanna Henderson: I think that brings us to a very interesting point because you know T Time is geared primarily for women and with women and about women, and a lot of times, you know women deal in love and love relationships a lot differently than men. And a lot of times, you will hear people, particularly women, when they are on just life journeys say that you've got to be able to love yourself before you can love someone else. Is that true?

Michael Henderson: No, Dr. Townsend really debunks that. It's not necessarily true. And that's not what that scripture means. When Jesus says to love your neighbor as yourself, he's really saying Love your neighbor, the way you want to be loved. And I think people have to understand that when we, the first commandment is loving God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength. And then it says to love your neighbor as you love yourself. So the assumption is that if I'm in a relationship with God, we have a genuine love relationship. I'm getting what I need from God; God's there. So I'm not entering into a relationship with you, trying to manipulate you to get something that only God can give me. So anything you give me is a bonus. Because if I'm loving God with all my heart, mind, soul and strength that is filling me to my brim and so what you give me is an overflow. So when we make the statement, well, you first got to love yourself, that's false. You first have to love God and God gives you the identity, and God gives you what you need. And you should love others the way you choose to be loved.

Twanna Henderson: And what I hear you saying, and I think Townsend, you know, brought this point out, which I thought was very interesting, is that that love is an interpersonal and relational process that is something that actually occurs between one person and another, not inside one person, that you've got to have a subject and an object.

Michael Henderson: Yes, that's an excellent point because you can't just, you know, loving ourselves and that's, that's really, that's pop culture, love yourself. And I think we all should we all should have self-love, but I don't think we should spend our time there. You can't really be in a relationship with yourself that way. It takes, as you said, Townsend, to talk about interpersonal relationships in order to really receive and experience love at its ultimate level.

Twanna Henderson: I agree. Now, do you think that some people give up on loving others because it can be hard, and you know, and we go through various things? But do you find that some people give up on loving others?

Michael Henderson: Absolutely, Tawana. I find that people who are in the giving professions, oftentimes, even in the ministry, often you hear words like burnout, or phrases like burnout, or tired or empty, those, those often are terms related to interpersonal interaction with people. And so I do think people do get tired. And people do feel like I don't, I can't love because I don't have any love to give. I do feel that.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. And I recall him saying that you know if we're really going to be able to love people that it kind of requires two things. He talked about humility, which refers to accepting the fact that you don't know it already. And tolerating discomfort, which is being willing to try new things and take risks because a lot of times, you know, with love, you've got to, you know, we want everything to feel good. We want it to be comfortable for us, you know, we don't want it to, to be, you know, uncomfortable at all. And that sometimes loving people, in fact, most of the time loving people requires tolerating discomfort.

Michael Henderson: Well, yes. And I want to take I think those are two excellent insights from the book, and I want to take it a step further. One of the reasons why people have a hard time loving is, Townsend points out, and I totally agree with him is this whole idea of not really totally understanding accurately love and giving things that are not necessarily pure love like codependency. He talks about codependency being where I'm making myself responsible for your internal feelings of acceptance and love, etc. And when he talks about codependency, I think it's; it's one of the illustrations he uses is, when you are more concerned about that person's well being than they are, you are codependent. And there are a lot of people in the helping profession, especially where they're working with people trying to love people trying to love on people. And they seem to be more invested in that person's well being than the person themselves. And that's what Townsend, I think, was trying to get to because you can't expect to have a real connection with people who are allowing you to really take the load and the weight of that relationship and carry it. If you're loving someone you want to you want to be there for them through connection, and I'm sure we'll get to that. But you also cannot totally absolve them of their responsibility. You've got to love them enough to help them take ownership to the things that they need to take ownership for.

Twanna Henderson I totally agree. And so I think that's a good segue into connecting because he talks about connecting. Why is it so important in loving people? What is connecting, and why is that important?

Michael Henderson: Connecting, and he really does a lot with this. It's a heart-to-heart interaction that you have with people. Generally, we don't have connections with people. And when we're struggling with love, we often are struggling with this whole thing of connection. Because what's happening is there's not a vulnerability, there's not a heart to heart connecting there. So he says, if we're really going to be connecting, we got to open up our heart, we got to, we got to be vulnerable to the possibility of being hurt. And that's why people, often we are, we have these boundaries up. And sometimes, you know, he's a writer on boundaries, I think it's good to have healthy boundaries. And sometimes we have these walls up, where I don't want to get too close, because I don't want to risk being hurt by you. So in order for me not to get hurt, I'll be present to a certain extent, but I won't be vulnerable; I won't open my heart to you.

Twanna Henderson: So connecting is really more than just knowing about someone but actually knowing that person.

Michael Henderson: Yeah. And he says, he says, the nature of connecting is building a bridge through truth-telling, telling the truth to each other. Through healing, there's going to be times in relationships where there's going to be wounds and to be committed enough to the relationship, to go through the process of, of healing. And then, and then he calls it letting go or forgiveness. Sometimes in relationships, we're not connecting because we're unwilling to let past hurts and past pains go, maybe not even in the present relationship. Maybe it's in a previous relationship. But because I hold on to things, I am not open to now allowing for this present relationship. And I still have this wall around my heart.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, I think that is so true. And you know, one of the things I definitely want to bring this out, because I thought it was so interesting in the book, you know, we all care about people. But he talks about how that care and love are not the same things. That that you know, you can say we care about people, but care and love are two totally different things. Do you recall that? And can you just kind of touch on that?

Michael Henderson: Yeah, I think what he was referring to Tawanna is that caring, caring is safe, caring, you can care about somebody, but not risk, the connection to love. Because when you care about things, you have some level of, investment, but not a lot. When you really love someone, you're invested, you're vested in a relationship, you're willing to risk things for the relationship, and you're willing to stay present in the relationship. And that, I think, is one of the differences that he points out.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, I think when you're caring about somebody, you know, I think we can have good intentions, you know when we are when we care about people. But unless we really take it to a place where we're seeking and doing the best for another, it doesn't really push it to that level of love. I want to talk real quickly about loving the unlovable. Because, you know, it is easy to love people who are loving you back. But all of us have those people in our lives who are hard to love. And, you know, what do we what are we supposed to do with those people?

Michael Henderson: That's an excellent question. Years ago, there was an author and speaker by the name of Carl George, and he would talk about in ministry, there are people who are difficult to love. And he labeled this term their E.G.R's, E.G.R's, and he calls them extra grace required people. Because these are people that just, they're just difficult people to love. I think all of us, all of us encounter those people. They misread your motives. They are constantly critical. They have, they have wounds; it's like trying to help an animal that's been wounded. They don't distinguish between your help and hurt. You're trying to move in to help them. They only see your help as a threat because they're hurting and extra grace required people or difficult to love people are people who have been so wounded that they can't distinguish between your help helping them in their hurt that they feel. So any overtures that you would have towards trying to help them along the way, they would definitely interpret that oftentimes, as you're trying to hurt me, and then they'll start, then they'll start reacting like, like a wounded animal would. I'm not comparing them to an animal, I'm just trying to use illustration as to understand it. So they would, they would then start lashing back out. But he talks about Townsend in the book, we all need grace. He uses, he uses the term grace in I think the third chapter of the book, and he talks about "grace is what we don't deserve. It's what we cannot earn. It's something that is given to us." And God gives all of us that grace. And what he says is that if God gives all of us grace, grace that we don't deserve, favor, not merited favor. It's just God's loving us, God's favoring us, God given to us, God feeling special about us, then, as hard as it will be, we have to learn how to grace other people. And sometimes that can be difficult. And that's why we have to draw on the love of God in order to be able to grace people.

Twanna Henderson: I think that's so true. Because all of us have been hurt while loving, you know, at some point or another and because of that, why is letting go or forgiveness vital in loving people?

Michael Henderson: Because forgiveness a lot of times we misunderstand the purpose of forgiveness, I believe the purpose of forgiveness or letting go is more for the offended person than it is the offender. And so so often we are as we are focused in on the offender. And so the mentality many times is that if I've let this go, they're not going to understand the severity of it, and how much it hurt me. And they're going to; they're going to take advantage of me and etc., etc. Really what God designed forgiveness for is for us not to be tied to the events that have caused us pain, heartache, and headache. He, he designed forgiveness for us to start a clean slate. So that if I am not letting go of things, it's like, it's like carrying around all of this weight, all of this baggage, all of these emotional issues. And it makes it almost impossible for me to be loved and love through all of that stuff.

Twanna Henderson: I think that is so true. Well, this has been so good. We could go on and on and on. And I just want to encourage people to get the book because it will definitely help you, but you know, as we approach the love day, Valentine's Day, many of our listeners are struggling with the whole love concept and what they believe it should mean. Can you pray for them? And that they would that they would be loving people and people who who know how to love and who will be loved?

rience that your love brought: 2000

Twanna Henderson: Well, thank you, Pastor Michael. I hope that you'll come back again; thank you for being on T Time today. To all of our listeners, I'm Twanna Henderson.