Faith and Counseling

Twanna Henderson: Welcome to T Time: Spiritual Conversations For, With and About Women. I'm your host Twanna Henderson. I want to remind you to like this podcast and share it with family and friends. Well, I am so excited about our guest for today. Joining us is Yana Jenay Conner. Yana is a writer and Bible teacher who seeks to help others think well about faith and culture. She earned a Master's of divinity in Christian ministry from South Eastern Baptist Theological Seminary and currently serves as the content creator for Pray, March, Act. Her first published work was to Jude Three projects curriculum "Through The Eyes of Color" and she can be reached on Instagram and Twitter at Yana Jenay. Yana Welcome to T Time.

Yana Jenay: Thank you. I'm so glad to be here.

Twanna Henderson: Glad to have you here. And of course, we're gonna be talking today about discipling millennials, or that Gen Y group. And I dare say that you are a millennial as well.

Yana Jenay: I am millennial, I barely made it, though. I don't do all the things that millennials do. But, But I am one,

Twanna Henderson: I think that you are the perfect person to, you know, kind of help us kind of walk through this whole thing about discipling millennials. This is a topic that is so important to many of our listeners. They're living with millennials, they're interacting with millennials in some kind of way. And so it's just something that we really need to address. But I want to start off by just asking you just to define disciple making?

Yana Jenay: Hmm. Yeah, that's a really good question. Um, I think when I first came to know the Lord and was challenged to make disciples, I thought that making disciples was teaching people the commands of Christ, right, like teaching them, the do's and the don'ts, and like holding them accountable to it. Like if they mess up, you know, you, you grab them, you know, they do something well, you applaud them. But it wasn't until, like, much later, in my walk with the Lord, that I started to really pay attention to these words in Matthew 28, where, you know, we famously have called it the Great Commission. And what stood out to me is that he tells them to go, therefore make disciples of all nations, you know, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. And then he says, teaching them how to obey everything that I have commanded you. And that's when kind of a light bulb went off like that it's not just merely teaching people the commands of Christ, but it's teaching them how to obey the commands of Christ. And so when we start thinking about that, it's like, well, what do people need in order to obey? Well, they need, you know, a changed heart, they need a changed mind, they need a different world view. And how obedience is like a whole person experience that includes not only our bodies, right? Obedience isn't, isn't just about what we do with our bodies, but it's, it's our will, it's our intellect. It's what we believe to be true and not true. And so for me, then it became like this, this grander thing of like, Oh, well, how do I, like actually teach people how to obey the commands of Christ. And that's a different, that's, that's harder work than just like putting, you know, before people a list of do's and don'ts. It's coming alongside them and modeling for them, how you do it, you know, it's asking good questions to help them to figure out why they do the things that they do. And challenging them to change their mind, you know, in a sense about how they're living. And so, those, that's how I would define discipleship, or disciple making.

Twanna Henderson: I think that's excellent. I think that's an excellent response. And I think it is so true. It is about the how, and I guess, you know, I guess one of the questions that I would ask is how, you know, how would you say that discipling millennials is different from or unique from from discipling other age groups?

Yana Jenay: Yeah. So Millennials are skeptics, you know, we have been impacted by certain events like 911. And, and those kinds of things that kind of cause us to be skeptical of leadership, causes us to question things versus like just accepting things wholesale. And so there used to be a time where you could go out and have an evangelistic conversation and say a word like sin and not get into a debate about, like, what sin is, and where does it come from? And are all people, you know, good? Or are people all bad? Or are they a mix of both, and so you can't just what I've found, at least is that I just can't go up to someone with maybe like, the bridge diagram of, you know, like, this is your sin, and Jesus, you know, helps you get over the bridge, and you become right in God. We've got to define some terms. First, because their way of seeing the world is very different than, you know, maybe the boomer generation, or Gen x, or you know, those kinds of things. And so we have to sort of dial it back quite a bit to, to define our terms and to meet people where they are. And one of the things I'm realizing is that we have to engage them on a worldview level one, because, you know, we live in an age of relativism, where people have defined their own terms and feel okay, defining their own terms. And so the approach is, is very different.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. And I think that is so true, I think we, you know, I think, like my generation, and, you know, a lot of times we don't like change, we you know, we kind of like to work within the models that have worked, and say, hey, this is this is it, and I think we do have to come to terms with the fact that, you know, the old model, you know, is not working. You know, is not going to work is not going to help them to get to where they need to get to. You know, Rick Richardson has an excellent book, entitled, "You Found Me," he talks about the emerging generation, the Gen Y, which is the newest generation and Gen Z. Why do you think that many of the emerging generation are leaving the church after high school?

Yana Jenay: I think at least with people that I talk to, people are seeking a more authentic experience. A more relational experience, they don't want to just, you know, be in spaces where they're, in a sense, like receiving a lecture about scripture, they want to be able to get into the text themselves. And kind of like, you just said, like, they're not gonna just take what you said, at face value. And so they're like, now let's get in here together and talk about it. Let's have a conversation, a dialogue. I think also there, you know, as, as of late, there just been, there's been a lot of controversy around the church and Big C church in some of the decisions, you know, that they make, you know. Statistics like 82% of white evangelicals, you know, voted for Trump, that that's disturbing to some folks, some of the dichotomies that the churches put between, you know, abortion and social justice issues. And I think we have to realize that, like, especially, Gen Y, they are activists, you know, and we have to remember they, they've been brought up in a particular sort of context where they have seen, you know, the stories of George Floyd, and they seen the stories of Mike Brown, like, this is their history, so to speak, and they've gone through this, you know, these tumultuous, like elections. And so all of that has framed them to be activists to be humanitarians. And when we don't see the church, prioritizing these issues, there kind of seems to be like a disconnect. Right? Where it's like, well, I'm really passionate about these things, but but you don't seem to care about them at all, you know, you just want me to, to live a righteous life, you know, not have sex with my boyfriend or girlfriend, you know, you're not really, you know, concerned about these things that are that are important to me. And so I think, one because they're there, they're seeking a more authentic experience and then two, they want to be a part of bringing about change in the world. And they don't see the church at the forefront of that, you know. I would wonder, you know, if like, there was a leader like, you know, Dr. King right now, you know, at the forefront of kind of this, this Neo civil rights movement that we're experienced. I wonder how how people might respond to faith differently. If there was there was some sort of leader who was both a Christian but also seeking to bring about justice on kind of that public level. And so I think that's what's missing. For a lot of people. Those two things,

Twanna Henderson: You know, you bring up an excellent point about just how millennials see the church, the big C church, and the skepticism that's there. What are some things that the church can do practically to retain millennials and, and those who are going off to college and through their college years, where they're exposed to so many different things and so many different beliefs, you know, what can the church do to retain them during that time?

Yana Jenay: Yeah, um, there's a book. It's called "Questioning Evangelism", and I'm forgetting who it's written by so my apologies for that. And it's a, it's an older book. But this book really taught me like the value of engaging people on a worldview level. And what that means is like taking time to understand who they are, what they're passionate about, why they're passionate about it, what they think, asking a lot of questions, to kind of unearth what their worldview is, and then kind of stepping into that. And so, for instance, like, if I'm having a conversation with someone who is passionate about women's rights, right, and because of that, they are, you know, pro choice. Instead of just saying, like, hey, you're wrong, you know, sitting and asking them like, well, how did you come to this position? What are the things that you care about that that has caused you to be convinced in this way? So taking a posture of listening and asking good questions, and then, at some point, I'm sure you will find something that you have in common with them? And it's like, well, I don't I don't think it's right for the government to dictate what people can and cannot do with their bodies. And it's like, okay, we can have a conversation about that, because there have been some some injustices in the past around women and their bodies. And so we can have a conversation about that, but I can also, like, have a conversation with that and share with you a biblical worldview about how God you know, opposes you know, injustice, right? However, like that injustice also includes this baby, right? And so I can have a more robust conversation with that person and versus just saying, like, hey, that is wrong. Anyone who believes, you know, pro choice is, you know, x y&z but instead like slowing down asking good questions and listening, and then when you find an entry point, to share a biblical worldview, that will probably resonate with them in some way. Like, oh, I didn't know that. That God thought that way, or I didn't know that the Bible, you know, taught that. Another thing for me sometimes is like, the goal isn't always for me to win them over. To my side. It's, more so just to move them in a position where maybe they're closer to making a decision for Christ or closer to aligning their lives with Christ. And so I like to ask questions and poke holes. You know, and, and I don't you know, that's not like in a, in a, in a condescending way, but more in a way of like, hey, you say that you believe this, but it it doesn't seem to line up with what you just said here. And so, how are you putting these two things together? And so I was having a conversation with a young lady at a coffee shop. I literally just asked her for the password, because I just wanted the password, had a paper to write and wasn't trying to share the gospel with anybody. And she began to share her story with me. And she was really vulnerable. And I appreciated that and she had told me that she had become a believer. And then later on, she said, Yeah, but I feel like all you have to do is be a good person to go to heaven. And I was like, well, wait a second. You just said you put your trust in Jesus. And now you saying that all we have to do is be a good person to go to heaven. So I just asked her I said, if that's true, then, why do you need a Savior? You know? And then she was like, well, you know, I think, you know, all roads lead, you know, to God and I'm like, okay, but if God is a person with a personality with likes and dislikes, then I can't say that his favorite ice cream is chocolate, and you say his favorite ice cream is vanilla. And we both be right, you know, like, like one of us is wrong. So I can't say that Jesus is the way, truth and the light and you say that all roads lead to heaven and both of those things be true. One of us is right. And so how do we decipher which one of us is right? And she said, well, I guess we would, you know. I said, I said, that that's why I think that the Bible, you know, shows us the way to God, because it's, it's God's inspired word. She's like, well, I don't know, if it's actually God's word. And the only way we could really know that is if he came down. And I stopped, and I was like, Well, he did come down. And you know, and you believe that he came down. Because you placed your faith in him. And like, she didn't want to talk to me anymore, you know, after that, which was fine. But I think she walked away with questions and realizing that this system that she could, you know, this worldview that she had created was incomplete, and that she needed to go back and kind of do do some further investigating. And I was like, that's a win. That's a win.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, yeah. Well, how do you see Jesus engaging with people on a worldview level in the scriptures?

Yana Jenay: Oh, man, I, we see thi so clearly, on the sermon at the Mount, or a sermon on the plane, however you feel where Jesus is, is engaging people on a worldview level. We see this specifically, in Matthew six, where Jesus tells them, Hey, don't store up your treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal but store up your treasures in heaven where neither moth nor rust destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal, for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. And so Jesus is making a logical argument. He's saying, hey, if you want to invest your goods, if you want to invest your life in something that will last, invest your life in things that are eternal. Store up your treasures in heaven, don't store up your treasures here on earth. And so the worldview that he wants them to accept is like, hey, this world, this is temeral, right. But there is another life to come that is eternal. And if you believe that, then therefore you would invest in eternal things, versus investing in temporal things where you know, moth and rust destroy, and still, and thieves can break in and steal. We see this like also, when Jesus is talking about adultery. And he says that, hey, it is better for you to, to cut off your right hand that causes you to sin, and to throw it away. It's better for you to lose one part of your body than to lose your whole body into hell. And so once again, we see that God is or Jesus is calling people to this eternal perspective, this eternal world view. And I just love that about Jesus that over and over again. And that's what's so interesting to me about Matthew 28, when we when we read Matthew 28. You know, teaching them to obey all of the commands that I have commanded you, like that should automatically bring us back to think through like all of the commands that are in Matthew, right, because that is one complete story. And so then it should be like, okay, let's go back and study all of the commands that Jesus, you know, shared in the previous chapters of Matthew. And what we'll find is that as we study those that Jesus isn't just telling them the commands, but he's also like, appealing to them to accept a biblical or an eternal worldview. And so he wants them to live in a particular way, because there is another day coming right where they will be held accountable for it. Even he tells him to be anxious and nothing. He's like, I'm telling you to be anxious and nothing because you don't have any control about tomorrow. All you got is today, you know, so accept that worldview, that all you have have control over is, is the now. So we see Jesus appealing to people's minds, and not just asking them to blindly follow Jesus. And I think that's one shift that the church needs to make is that oftentimes, we're just putting commands before people and expecting them to follow them. But we're not, we're not giving them any sort of reason why, you know, we're not putting before them a compelling and convincing, why to follow Jesus. And some people will say, Well, you know, you just obey Jesus because he's Jesus. But even Jesus doesn't take that posture, you know, Jesus slows down, and he tells parables, and he engages people on their heart, and on a mental level, to get them to turn away from their sins, and to live life as he originally intended. And so I love that about Jesus. He's not like, you know, well, I won't, I don't want to put any of my parents on front street, but he's not. He's not like, just just do what I say, you know, and you say Why? I remember asking my dad, my step dad, I'm putting him on front street now. Cuz like, why can't I chew gum in church? Because I said, so. Okay, well, is that really like gonna help me to not chew gum in church. But if you give me in a compelling why, because it's disrespectful or, you know, something like that, then that might help me to make a different decision to understand the why behind it.

Twanna Henderson: I think that's good. That's some good stuff. And I think that why is so I think that why kind of sums up that millennial group that millennial age that why and I think it boils down, at least from my experience, it boils down to that, why in so many instances. You know, it really does. But I want to kind of turn, I want to turn their attention to social media, because, you know, social media is a huge thing, particularly as we you know, talk about millennials and just that millennial age group and everything. What are some of the messages that are out there on social media that you feel could be really problematic for millennials seeking to follow Jesus?

Yana Jenay: Yeah, yeah, well, one that comes right off the top of my head is self care. Um, now I'm all like, get your nails done, you know, get your pedicure, or, you know,

Twanna Henderson: Definitely get your pedicure. Which I haven't had in a while.

Yana Jenay: I know, right? I know, right? I miss it. You know, I'm not I don't want to, I don't want to bash those things. But self care can kind of be this, it can cause us to be selfish. Right? And it also would say that suggested us that there are days where we could just take off from life. Um, well. Jesus calls us to self denial. You know, my friends always make fun of me because I say denial wrong. I'm from St. Louis. Just bear with me. But it's, you know, the Bible causes us to live a life of self denial. And so how does that measure up against culture, that's, that's promoting self care, right. And then also, every day we are to pick up our cross and follow Jesus. And so what happens when on the day that you have scheduled like some self care that somebody in your life is in, in great need. And so I've just been wondering about this whole, this, I believe it presents a tension for us of, you know, self denial versus self care. But if we exchange this, this self care for Sabbath rest, then I think we get a little bit closer to the rhythms that Jesus is calling us to, because Sabbath Rest is, is about, you know, resting in God, resting in the Gospel. Yes, there is a nature of like taking a day off, but you're taking the day off from like, certain things, you're not you're not working, you're not striving, but if a need comes up, you're still available. Right to meet it. And so, I think if we take self care as kind of like a way of life that we can, you know, because it's not rooted in a biblical worldview, that we can miss handle that. And then there's cancel culture. I mean, that's highly problematic. What do we do with cancel culture when the Bible, you know, who is it, Peter, he's like, so like Jesus like how many times he's supposed to forgive a person? Like seven times because you know, like that's the number of completions. So like after seven times, can we cancel a person? And Jesus responds to him is seventy times seven. So then what do we do with that when the Bible is calling us to live a life of forgiveness, but the culture is telling us to cancel people, particularly like, you know, toxic people. Now, there are some toxic people, and there's some toxic relationships that need to be ended. So please hear me on that. But sometimes, what we call toxic is just like regular old conflict that you have in friendships, you know, or misunderstandings, or things that we just don't want to handle. I remember my mom telling me this, this, this gonna make her look good. But I had a friend, and I was just like, I just she gets on my nerves. And my mom says to me, she said, everybody who shows you your sin gets on your nerves. And I said, whoa, wait a second. You know, here was I was ready to cancel that friend. But my mom is like, no, the reason why that friend gets on your nerves is because you see your sin. You don't need to cancel that friend, you need to continue on in relationship with them, you need to learn how to forgive. And so that was kind of a turning point for me. And then also just studying God's word around like, there are times, yes, where we need to end toxic relationships but sometimes we do need to suffer long with people for our own growth, and development. And so I mean, those are, those are a couple of messages, there's one, there's one more I want to share, but I might get in trouble for this. But let's just talk about it. Let's just like put it out out there. We could talk about it later. Um, but a lot of there's been a lot of like, and it's this is, you know, Women's History Month, we're in March. And I love women, I am a woman, I believe that women should be empowered, and all of that, but this statement of the future is female. Um, it's, caused some, some concern for me. One because I don't I don't ever, as much as I want equality in the world. I don't want it to come in such a way that we dis value other communities, right. And so, um, and also, what I see in the Scripture is that God's like, design is like, really, for the future to be male and female, you know, where we are able to live out, you know, God's calling together. And I think that's what's what's missing for me, like, I understand the need for this push for women leadership, this push, listen, I understand that as a woman in ministry, like I'm pushing for it, too. But I really envision a future where men and women don't have to compete with one another, but that they can serve side by side with one another. And so I wonder if, you know, this, the The future is female, kind of causes, like more of this competition, versus us like running along side by side, because that's God's, like vision for for the world. He created male and female in, in his image, he gave them both the command, you know, to subdue the earth and to have dominion over it. It's something that we are to do together, not one without the other.

Twanna Henderson: Well, I think that was a good answer. I think that was safe. But I do think we have to be careful about some of those subtle messages that are pushed out those subliminal things that are just really leading us away from, you know, a biblical construct. I mean, we need to be really careful about some of those things. Guys, we could go on and on and on. There's so much that we could talk about but let me ask you this. What are two or three big life issues that the church needs to address to win and challenge millennials? You know, because there's so much that, you know, that's going on and there's so many things that are issues at this point. But what are one or two big life issues that the church really needs to address to win and challenge this age group?

people are really struggling.: 2020

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, that's good. Yeah, definitely a certain number of likes, does not equate to healthy relationships. So don't believe that. Well, Yana, this has been great. I wish we could go on and on and on. And maybe we need to come back and do another part or something. But some of our listeners are leaders in the church, and some are just persons who are believers who are simply concerned about this generation. Can you as we close, pray for them so that they can just really be sensitive to the heart of God on this on this issue?

Yana Jenay: Yeah, of course. Of course, I will love to. Father, thank you. Father I am thankful to know that there are ministers, women, pastors, lay leaders, and disciple makers Lord who are concerned about the generations to come, Lord, and who desire to invest in millennials and, and Gen Y. Lord, I'm just I'm thankful for that. Father, I just pray word that their first ministry to us would be prayer, Lord, that You would drive them to their knees to seek you for wisdom and insight on how to come alongside these generations in truth in love. How to slow down and ask good questions and to be slow to speak and quick to listen. Lord and Father, I do pray, Lord, that as they move towards these generations Lord, that you would, you would help them to know what to say, Lord. That your spirit would give them the words to say, when they need it, Lord, and that you would empower them to be your witnesses. And to do so with confidence in you and confidence in your word. Lord, the gospel is the same. It's still the power of God that brings about salvation to all men. Your Spirit still works in the lives of people and so Father, I pray that they will move forward and confidence in those two truths, Lord, and that you will show them how to contextualize it for this generation. So we thank you. It's in Jesus name I do pray, amen.

Twanna Henderson: Amen. Well, Yana, it was great sharing with you on today. My new spiritual daughter. It's been an honor to have you on T Time and to all of our listeners I look forward to connecting with you the next time. Be blessed of the Lord.