My mom doesn't look like me

Twanna Henderson: Welcome to T Time: Spiritual Conversations For, With and About Women. I'm your host, Twanna Henderson and I want to remind you to like this podcast and share it with your family and friends. Well, I am so excited about today's guest. Our guest is Julie Thomas. Julie is a pastor's wife who serves alongside her husband Joel at Harbor church in Westminster, Colorado, where he is the lead pastor. She is the mom to four teenagers. Oh my goodness. In addition to being a realtor, a writer and a coffee enthusiast. Julie has served in ministry for 25 plus years, with students, women and families, both in the church and for local ministries. Julie, welcome to T Time.

Julie Thomas: Thank you so much for having me. It's such an honor to be here.

Twanna Henderson: It is good to have you here. Of course, we were introduced by a mutual friend, and I'm excited about talking with you on today.

Julie Thomas: Me too.

Twanna Henderson: Let's first start talking about your family. I have one teenager, so I can't imagine having four teenagers. Oh my goodness. Talk to us about your family makeup.

Julie Thomas: Yes, it is so wild how God put our family together. I never would have dreamed it in a million years how God put it all together. But when Joel and I got married, we knew we wanted to have kids and I was a little bit older. And so we wanted to make that happen. And so but and we both came into the marriage, knowing that we wanted to adopt, that was just something that we both knew right up at the top that we wanted to do. But we thought we would just do it the old fashioned way. But that just didn't happen. I had a miscarriage. And so we just jumped into adoption right away. And we we have two sons that we adopted from Haiti. We have a daughter that's adopted domestically. And then after we had all those kiddos I ended up getting pregnant. And so we've got our little, we call him our little red caboose, because he's got red hair. Little Zachary came along after after those three. And so the way that their ages line up right now I have a senior, two juniors and an eighth grader, and so 13 through 18 is what is in our house right now. And it's a lot of energy, man, I'm telling you what, it's a lot of energy.

Twanna Henderson: I can only imagine. I can only imagine. Oh my goodness. Yeah, that's pretty amazing. You know, I've read that there are hundreds and thousands of children that need to be adopted. And for you to even be adopting children of a different race. How did you arrive in the world of adoption?

Julie Thomas: Yeah, I think I went into it pretty naive and pretty open. If you can be both of those things at the same time, just going okay, God, whatever you would have whatever you would have, I think I probably always pictured it being similar to me, I'm white, my husband's white, we come from that, that world. And so I think I always imagined that that's kind of how that would be. But I remember one night after my husband and I got married, we sat in a parking lot. I remember him telling me, I feel like I'm supposed to have a black son. And I remember looking at him thinking, "well, have you seen your wife?" Because I mean, you got the wrong girl, if that's what you're thinking. But he just was, he really felt very strongly about that. And at the time, I was working at an inner city high school that had all different ethnicities, that sort of thing. And I knew when I was working there, that the different cultures of the different races was a really big deal, a source of a source of energy, a source of pride. The black culture was a very, very strong, very beautiful, strong and prideful, people like in the best way possible. And I thought, I don't know that I'm prepared for that. I don't know that I'm qualified to raise my son, who is black in this in this environment. I don't know that I'm qualified to do that. And I told him that and he was not deterred. And so we were getting ready to go on a mission trip to Haiti and, and he just said, you know, Julie, you're going to get down there and it's not going to matter. It's just not going to matter. And I wasn't I honestly was not sure walking into it. But then we got down there. We walked through the orphanage, and it wouldn't have mattered if they were hot pink, polka dotted, it wouldn't have mattered whatsoever because they were just these little babies that just needed a mama to love them. And I'm like, I'll take them all bring them all home with me. And so we were down there and this little boy came out and he was 14 months old, and he was crying, crying, crying, crying. And someone put him in Joel's arms. And he stopped crying immediately. And the worker came out and said he was just left here three days ago, and he hasn't stopped crying in three days. And this is the first time he stopped crying. And it was like, he picked Joel. And that's our oldest Isaiah. And he, he picked Joel at that orphanage that day. And it's interesting, I've got film of different times where Joel would walk in the room, and you could just see as a space just light up whenever Joel would walk in that room. And so we came home, and we just knew that that was our son. And in the meantime, our daughter was born here in the States, and we worked on that. And then by the time, we kind of figured things out, we asked we could add another one to our dossier since they had all the paperwork in Haiti, we're like, could we just get to since you guys have all our paperwork, and it's just a lot to make all that happen. And so by the time this all that, by the time they came home from Haiti, Bella was almost two, Zion had just turned two, and Isaiah had just turned three. And then a year later, I wound up pregnant and so we had four. We went from one to four and 20 months. Crazy.

Twanna Henderson: Oh, my Goodness.

Julie Thomas: That's, that's a whole other podcast for a different time. But that was, that was kind of crazy. But that's alright. It's really sweet to see how God has put our family together. And again, it wouldn't have mattered what color they were whatsoever. They were my, they're my sons. And, and they've always been my son's.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, you know, that is pretty amazing. And you know, when the Lord can just open our eyes like that it is a gift. But, you know, that's not something that happens with everybody. I mean, talk to us about your family and your friends. Because I mean, you may have been in that in that place. And like you said, there was, you know, that sense of naivete, that you had and openness at the same time. But you know, and our family and our friends are sort of on the sidelines thinking, are you crazy? What are you doing? You know, what's happening? What was that like?

Julie Thomas: Well, I would probably look at it in two different kind of categories. One, our friend group was amazing, we actually went to a church that had a huge adoption program. And so we actually brought our kids into kind of a family already with lots of different colors, and lots of different races. And so that was a huge blessing that we got plugged into a church that already kind of had that established. And so for us, as friends, we kind of looked around and went, Wow, well, we're kind of doing life, we all look kind of the same, we've kind of got similar stories, and that sort of thing, where I noticed it was when they got into school. Where I noticed the difference on how others might treat them was when they entered into elementary school age. And then as they got into middle school, and as they got into high school, it was interesting to watch the differences. My husband, I remember one year, he kind of noticed, February is Black History Month. And we noticed that a lot of stuff would get stirred up in the month of February, where they would tell stories about the plight and slavery, and that sort of thing of different African Americans and different stories of that, and things that would get said to our sons during that time was astounding to me. Astounding. And because I'm white, because that's not been my experience I was stunned at the things that people would say to my son's.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. And and I get that because, you know, just because I'm not white. You know, when I talk to friends and people that I know, you know, a lot of times people don't realize that white people in particular, don't have to deal with black people. You know, you can live your life quite simply and go on without dealing with black people. And so a lot of times, you know, that light bulb comes on when we have certain things to happen. I know you wrote in a blog article a couple of years ago entitled, "Where is the disconnect? The question, I'm asking myself about racism?" What was the premise for writing that blog?

Julie Thomas: Well, I initially wrote it after the Charlottesville riots, because I just could not believe that people of my skin color, who are white could treat somebody that way. And who could could just rant the most demonic evil things at people who who look different than them. I just, it just made me sick. I think racism is, in my opinion, the worst. It's just, it's just the absolute worst atrocity that you can do to another human being, and to sit there and watch that on my screen. And to watch it from a mother's eyes, not just as a not just as a person watching the nightly news, but to watch it as a mother. And to go, could that happen? And so I wrote it based on on that, and then I actually revamped it and kind of rewrote it again, after all, everything that went down last year after George Floyd. Just again, re looking at as a mom going, I don't understand how somebody could look at my son's and say, you have less value, your life doesn't matter, just because of the color of your skin. I was so appalled. And I just thought, you know what, I, I can sit back and say nothing. Because really what else can be said? I mean, there's been so many things that through the years, what in the world, I'm just I don't have a platform. I don't have a bullhorn, I don't have any sort of national platform on any level whatsoever. What difference can I make? I just couldn't stay quiet. I had to say, I just had to say something out into the blog world, because our kids are watching. Our kids are watching how we respond and how am I responding to racism in my little corner of the world here in Denver, Colorado, in my little suburb. How am I responding to that? I wrote a quick kind of synopsis of an experience that I had with my son. One night, I believe he was in middle school or he had maybe just started at one of our area high schools. And we were just driving, it was night, I was taking a few of his friends home and you know, as a mom, you're just kind of sitting there and you're listening to things going on in the backseat. That's such a sweet place to be, is kind of listening to your kids and their friends in the backseat just going alright, what are they talking about? What's what's going on? You know, keep a pulse on what they're talking about. And I heard my son, say, if you go to this, and he said the name of the school, if you if you go to this particular High School, which wasn't the school that he was at, you get made fun of if you're black. And I could feel it rise up in me going, that's not true. I wanted to turn around and correct him and go, that's not true. Because and here's why. Because I feel this way, my friends feel this way. So surely my community must feel this way. And if my community feels this way, then surely that's how it is. Everybody must feel the same as me because I, I believe this, and so therefore, everybody must believe this. And I wanted to turn around and correct him. But it was at that moment that God really did something in me and kind of opened my eyes again. Again, fortunately, isn't it just sweet? How God just does that just doesn't give up on us and keeps coming back at us So, so intentionally. And just said, Julie, what if that is true? What if? What if people do make fun of him? Because of his skin color? Again, reminding me that it's different than I am.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, yeah. And you mentioned George Floyd. Over the past 18 months, our nation, and really our world has experienced a racial awakening in a sense. How have conversations in your house been over this time, especially in light of all the news on racial tensions in our country?

Julie Thomas: I know. Well, my boys are very active in sports. Both of them are, are very active in sports. And so sports, you know, messages of racism are loud, and they're everywhere. Especially over the past 18 months. And so, of course, they're listening, and they're picking up on that. And really, I've had to go to them several times, and just look at them and go, I just, I just want you to know that I understand that I'm never going to understand. I'm never going to understand what it's like to have a mom that looks different than you. I'm never going to understand what that looks like for you. And I know that that's probably strange. And maybe, maybe that's hard for you to go, my mom looks different than me. I've wished that she didn't. And I just want you to know that I'm so proud of you. And I'm so thankful. I'm just so thankful that I get to be your mom, I'm so thankful. And it's been interesting to watch them both react to it and they kind of take turns in two different camps. Sometimes they get really mad, they get really mad about the racism thrown their way. Sometimes they get really angry about it and they just want to take people out in all honesty. They just want to they just want to serve justice in their own ways. And again, I just have to look at them and go I can only, I can sympathize with where you're at. I can understand how mad that must make you. I can't even imagine. I can't even imagine your shoes. And there's other times another camp that the other camp that they kind of live in, it's like, I'm just gonna outwork everybody. I'm just gonna outwork everybody, and I'm going to just show them that I'm better than you. That's kind of the other camp that they'll that they'll live in sometimes. I just know for me, I've just had to make my space, my relationship with them, the safest place, one of the safest places for them to be. That our home is one of the safest places that they know that their dad and I will defend them that we will fight for them, that we will go into that school, if we sense any sort of racism heading their way that they know that their mom and dad will, will walk in and defend them if need be. And I think that's really, I've just kind of taken that stance that my kids, again, I may not understand fully where they're at, I can observe it as an outsider, but that they are so loved and accepted. And I am safe, and they are safe. And they are loved and I believe the best for them. I believe the best about them and see that in them. That's, that is, gosh, that has been number one priority with them over the past 18 months for sure.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. You know, there are conversations that black parents have with their children that white people don't have with their children. Have you had some of those conversations with those? Your sons of color? That black parents have to have with their children.

Julie Thomas: You know, put your hoodie down, put your hood down on your on your hoodie. You can't wear that when you're walking in the store. I'm sorry, you just can't. You're a little redheaded brother can, not a big deal but for whatever reason, son, I'm sorry, you got to put your hood down. We've watched them be followed in target. I'll be there with all of my kids. And I will watch employees, watch my sons. As they go through target. My sons are getting ready to drive. You know, there's going to be there's been conversations about here's what happens when you're driving, this is the deal. Just get home. That's kind of our phrase, you just got to get home, do whatever you need to do. And all those different things that you're going to tell him to do. Put your hands on the steering wheel, you know, Yes, ma'am. No, ma'am. Yes, sir. No, sir. And that's just, it's different than than my daughter, my daughter. I don't have to have those conversations with her. But it is the world that we live in. And it's disappointing. It's frustrating. it's maddening. But, it's just the world that we live in.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. You titled your blog article. "Where is the disconnect?" Where is the disconnect?

Julie Thomas: Well, that's a good question. That's a really great question. I think sometimes it's based on how we were raised. I know kind of depending on the part of the country you lived in, there might be certain people of certain skin color, that maybe, you've grown up hearing your parents tell inappropriate jokes about. Or maybe you were allowed to tell inappropriate jokes in your home. And that's just kind of the way that you were raised. And so you've got this bias that you maybe came into the world with. I think there is just flat out evil in the world. And I think people just take that on, and they don't even question it. I think it's, it's an easy, it's an easy way to make yourself feel better. I think it is. See I can get I can feel myself getting little fired up on the inside. I think there's some I think there's some laziness, I think it is not owning your own life. I think it is, we live in such a fast paced world that we don't see people. And we can just default to being awful to other people. I think we can just default to being awful to other people, and we can just use it as an excuse. It's just the gross like I get, I can feel it even just even as I speak about it, it just makes me nauseous, that people would that people treat other people that way based on their skin color. It's just, it's just sickening to me. It really is. I mean, I'm tearing up even as I speak about it, because it's, it's so awful in my eyes.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. And you know, and I want to be on a solution side of things. So what are some intentional, some intentional ways that parents can help their children address the topic of race and racism, but particularly white parents?

Julie Thomas: Exactly. Well, I think the first thing that is a really good idea, a good first step, is to look at your, take an honest look at your own life. And just honestly ask yourself, is there even a drop of racism in me? I think that's a really good honest question to ask yourself. Like I said, Is there any bias? Is there any, you know, judgment that you experienced growing up that you've just kind of adopted? Well, that's just kind of how I was raised. That's kind of what we do. You know, ask yourself, what's my family's history in racism? What were the jokes growing up that maybe there were generalizations. Maybe there were stereotypes that you had growing up? I think, first step is just to look at your own life. And then I think that the second thing is we just got to ask better questions. We've got to ask better questions. I think, having honest questions with your kids, especially if they're in school. If they're in elementary school, if they're in middle school, if they're in high school, asking them, what's the school culture like that you live in? No matter what color your kids are? what's the what's the culture like with kids, that have different skin colors? How are people treated? How do you see the administration at your school handling issues of race or racism? How is that dealt? How does that make you feel? Asking your kids, how does that make you feel? And are you being a leader among your friends, among your friend group? Are you? Are you being a good leader among your friends? Are you showing the love of Christ among your friend group, and so just asking better questions and being really intentional about that, because I think we can just assume that our kids are handling it, and they just get it and they get all the same ideals that we have, and our kids just kind of get this. But I think some of that has to be so intentional, and just helping them walk through that and be able to see that on their own and go, we're not going to stand for this. And then. So one, ask yourself good, honest questions. Two, ask your kids good, honest questions. And three, as parents, just keep modeling that. Keep modeling racial reconciliation. I think we can be really good at talking at our kids about this. But I think sometimes this is this is more caught by our kids than taught because they're going to see, mom and dad might talk a good game. But you know, I actually don't see anybody different around me. And so that is just being intentional. That is, man, are we going to open up our house to people that look any different than us? Are we going to be intentional? You know, when we walk into a room or walk into church or walk into our school? Are we going to intentionally seek out people that that might look different than us and look at him in the eye? Ask them, you know, ask them questions, sit down for coffee, listen to their stories, get to know them. Just model that. Modeling that intentionality is is a big deal because our kids are watching.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, I think that's really good. And I think I mean, I think all of those ways are really important, but modeling it, I think is huge for them to be able to see. You know, Julie, there are women, and especially mothers who are listening to us today. And some are wondering, why are we still talking about this? Some feel ill equipped to have these conversations and and some are really burdened by the lack of Christ likeness that is displayed even amongst believers. I want to ask you to take a moment to just pray for them as we wrap up.

Julie Thomas: Oh man, for sure. For sure. Thank you so much. I'd be honored to do that. Oh, Lord, you you know us, you see us, you love us. You created each of us exactly the way that you wanted us to be created. You put us in this place on this spot in the kingdom timeline. You didn't create us to live 50 years ago, or 100 years ago. You created us to be where we're at right now. And so God I pray for every single woman, every single mom that might be listening to this who is burdened and just doesn't understand it. Doesn't understand how someone could speak that way towards another human being. God I pray I pray that we would be a light that we would be a city set on a hill. I pray that we would, we would first just allow you to flow through us and fill us up with your love and your compassion for others. And I pray that that would just flow out of us. I pray that we would just look for opportunities to love people around us to show your love your, your generosity of love towards other people. I pray that we would really see them. That we would get a curiosity about people around us. That we would want to know their stories. That we would see others for who they are, right where they're at. I just pray in Jesus name that those listening today would just be beacons of light. That they would break chains, that they would see open opportunities to spread your love to spread your gospel. And that your kingdom would move through and push back the works of darkness in this and that your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And I just thank you. I just thank you and praise you for your outpouring of love on us today. In Jesus name. Amen.

Twanna Henderson: Amen. Well Julie, it has been so great speaking to you and even just seeing a part of your heart that's just so tender to the Lord. Thank you for being a guest on T Time.

Julie Thomas: Thank you so much for having me.

Twanna Henderson: It's been great having you. To all of our listeners. I want to remind you to listen to us again next month, but I look forward to connecting with you the next time be blessed of the Lord.