A Conversation with Dr. Carol Tanksley: Understanding Intimacy and Its Role in Relationships

Twanna Henderson: Welcome to T Time: Spiritual Conversations For, With and About Women. I'm your host, Twanna Henderson. And as always, I want to remind you to like this broadcast and to definitely share it with someone in your life. Well, today's guest has a very unique background. Dr. Carol Tanksley is an author, a speaker, a personal coach, a podcaster, a licensed OBGYN physician, an ordained Doctor of Ministry and president of Dr. Carol Ministries. Dr. Carol practiced medicine as an OBGYN physician and reproductive endocrinologist for over 29 years. And, while continuing to practice medicine, she also obtained a Master of Divinity and then a Doctor of Divinity, both from Oral Roberts University focusing on Christian leadership. Dr. Carroll resides in Austin, Texas, and has four wonderful grandchildren. Dr. Carol, welcome to T Time.

Dr. Carol Tanksley: It is so good to be here. I love having these kinds of conversations. And it's just a pleasure and an honor.

Twanna Henderson: Well, I am excited to delve into our conversation. Today, our listeners are going to get a treat because they're not going to see what's coming. But you have, as I've read, you've got a very extensive background. You are a Doctor of Medicine. You're a Doctor of Ministry. And I also want to give you a title. The Doctor or Sex. Because that's where this conversation is gonna go today. And that may be a new title for you. But I want to first ask you about being this sex doctor, if you will, and kind of talk about that and your struggles around that.

Dr. Carol Tanksley: Yeah. Well, Twanna, yeah, that is kind of a new title. When I was going through graduate training, some of my friends started to call me Doctor Doctor. Now maybe it'll be Doctor Doctor Doctor. I would never have imagined that God would have me speaking or writing or dealing with sexuality, intimacy, or that part of life. As I went through my OBGYN training, obviously, and the years of practice, I was privileged to help many, many, many women in some of the most intimate aspects of their bodies, lives and relationships. And, of course, I touched on sexuality, and the good, the bad, and the not so good, and some of the repercussions of that. But I also saw that just dealing with biology didn't always, in fact often, help with what they were feeling and struggling with most. I grew up in a very sexually dysfunctional household. Dysfunctional in all kinds of ways, including, you know, sexually dysfunctional. I knew all the right things. I had all kinds of facts, both, you know, biologically, and then spiritually. I had read the Bible, from the time I could read, gone to church, from the time I was born. I knew all this stuff. But I was still just hurting and broken in some of these most intimate parts in my heart. And I had to walk through learning a lot, first of all, about how God saw me, and find some healing. In my case, I am grateful that I did not get married young, because I really believe if I had gotten married young, it would have not been a good circumstance at all. And then as I've started to get into ministry, in more recent years more directly, I have seen how this topic just gets to the core of who we are as human beings, and perhaps especially, as women. We're having conversations about, and with women today. And that touches something so deep, and God wants to go there. He wants to get below the surface and touch those parts of us.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, he really does. And you mentioned sexual dysfunction. And a lot of us probably have sexual dysfunctions or have come out of situations of sexual dysfunction and didn't even realize it. And again, because we don't talk about this. We don't talk about this. And that's why I'm so excited about your book, "Sexpectations."

Dr. Carol Tanksley: Oh, thank you.

Twanna Henderson: First of all, I love the title, "Sexpectations: Reframing Your Good and Not-So Good Stories about God, Love, and Relationships." And one of the things that you say is that we all have a sexual story. Explain what that means.

Dr. Carol Tanksley: You and I, Twanna, and everybody listening, we learned things about intimacy, relationships, sexuality, and everything related; with we learn things about all of that before we knew we were learning anything of the sort. You picked up things just growing up, whether or not those words were said or whether you're not whether or not you had any so called sex education. You learned things about that. What did you see with your parents or caretakers? What was the something to be talked about? Was it taboo? Was it good? Was it bad? And, just as importantly, how did God feel about sex? What did he have to say about it? Those things just became embedded in your mind and in your heart. Long before you understood anything about what was happening there. And then, of course, the early experiences that you had about being a girl, becoming a woman, what your early relationships related to sexuality were like. Many, at least one in four, and I think, in many situations, more than one in four women have been sexually harmed as a girl or a teen. So that sexual harm that came affects our story. What you learned was that if you are married, what was part of sex in marriage, so many have had, I believe, twisted messages about God and sex embedded in their souls. And all of that creates a multitude of stuff inside that needs to be dealt with. And I believe Jesus is saying to each one of us, "This is where you can deal with it. Let's address this."

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, one in four. That's a high statistic. One in four. Why are we not talking about this?

Dr. Carol Tanksley: I think it's because the culture, at large, has made a big deal about sex. And the church has tried to step away from that in so many ways. But, sex was God's idea. There is only one book in the Bible totally devoted to only one subject. All the books of the Bible usually address many subjects except one. Song of Solomon addresses sexuality and the way God intended that to be between a husband and wife. We would say that God's all for it. And yet, evil has hijacked this. I think another reason many in the Christian church don't want to talk about all of this is because of how evil has messed up this part of our human experience. Ever since the Garden of Eden, Satan has assaulted this part of our souls. And when I say "this part of our souls," it's much more than the acts that we do with our bodies. Although the acts that we do with our bodies have consequences, significant consequences, but I think probably every woman who's listening or watching to us right now knows that, it's not just about biology. This is too weighty. And I believe that's because of how God created in us the way in our hearts that we need intimacy. And we can talk about the difference between intimacy and sex and how that impacts our human relationships. But you also just paused on the one in four who have experienced sexual harm sexual abuse. More broadly, there are some, such as Dr. Dan Allander at the Seattle school and others, and I'm actually one of them, who believes that there is some way in which we have all been sexually harmed. Whether that's been something physical to our bodies, such as sexual abuse as girls or teens, or, more broadly, it's lies that we have come to believe. Some from culture and, I'm going to contend, some lies or at least partial or half truths in the church that we have come to believe, the pornified culture that we live in now, all of that assaults us in this part of us. And that sexual harm leads us to behave in certain ways. Some ways that are good, but some ways that are not so good. I think it's helpful for all of us to understand that, because nobody wakes up one day and just decides, "I'm going to act badly." If you came from somewhere, there's a story behind whatever behaviors you have or haven't engaged in. Jesus sees all of that. Yes, our behaviors matter. But Jesus also sees and wants to address: how did you get to that point in the first place?

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. And when you talk about sexual assault, I'm sure that there's a lot of imprinting that comes from media and things that we really take into our spirit, into our aggregate and into our ears. There are so many things coming at us. I'm sure that you walk with women, or you've got stories of women that you've walked alongside of, and how does this look for them? Is there like one or two women that you've come alongside who talk about this?

Dr. Carol Tanksley: Well, so many stories, and I give a lot of vignettes in the book, "Sexpectations," that you referenced about some of the stories I think of two right now. One is a woman who I call "Violet," who talked to me when she was engaged to be married for the eighth time. And the pain she had in her heart, because just about nobody knew that she had been married that many times. And what we ended up talking about was what was she hungry for? What was her heart really needing? And sex wasn't filling that need. She had come to believe that, "if I put a ring on my finger, then it legitimizes sex." She understood that, but she was never addressing what her soul really was hungry for, which was intimacy. Of course, there was brokenness and pain from the past. Some ways that she had been harmed. And then, of course, choices and behaviors she had engaged in that we're not godly and were not healthy. And so we just had to address what she was really hungry for.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. When I think about that, we don't think about that God-like vacuum that we have and that we need, but yeah, I didn't mean to cut you off.

Dr. Carol Tanksley: That's okay. I think of one more woman who I call "Simone." I worked with her for over quite some period of time. She first came wrestling with just her picture of God and her relationship with God. But she and her husband had been married for, going on 25 years, and sex was non-existent. It had been many years since they had engaged sexually, and the previous earlier years, it had not been good. And as we unpacked Simone's story about that, every now and then she kind of dip her toe in the water of dealing with these things and then pull back. It was hard. It was scary. But we unpacked how she had been sexually harmed as a girl and attained some of the early experiences she had with boys and teens, and then her experience of getting married. It was a very mixed bag. And so those beliefs and pathways in her heart that had been so harmed and broken and then how did God play into all of this? But the beautiful thing of her story is that, after a period of time, she experienced such a beautiful healing from God. God had to do some big work in her husband's life as well. He had some big time baggage. And so, God worked on him as well. But, after several years of no physical intimacy, they came together again, sexually, and it was good for both of them. If you are married, I believe that is God's design and plan and it can happen. So I've seen the benefits to women of working through some of these things. And I could tell stories of unmarried women. There's just so many.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, that's good. I'm sure that you've counseled many individuals and couples on their relationships and just dealing with their sexuality. What have you observed in counseling others that has surprised you or just impacted your own relationships?

Dr. Carol Tanksley: Yeah, great question. First thing that comes to mind is that facts don't usually change people. We, in the western church at large, have generally done quite good at information, but that doesn't change people. It doesn't lead to lasting change. I think, probably the majority of women listening to us have a reasonably good idea about, "what they should do" and "what God would want them to do." Now, of course, there's their struggle there. But facts don't change people. And I really enjoy some of the neurobiology. The scientific training and medical background that I have gives me, perhaps, a perspective that there's kind of the two sides to our brain. And some people listening may be aware that your left brain, so to speak, is primarily verbal and deals with facts and information. The right side of your brain is nonverbal, and it has to do with emotions. We might call that the heart, the nonverbal part of us. Stuffing more facts into your left brain doesn't change you. What changes that right part of you. The other important thing is that emotional right brain part of you, neurobiologist actually call that the master switch of the body. That will win out almost every time. And so, how do we impact that? That part of your brain changes and grows by experiences, and by being seen and known. It makes me think of the way God originally created us. We need to be seen and known. Both by people and by God. And that is what changes people. That's what changed me. I don't easily let down my walls and connect with people. And I have learned to do that in my own relationships. I have seen the impact on me when I am seen and known and then offer that to others. And they are changed when they are seen and known. That's how God made us.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, that's good. That's really good. I want to go a little bit deeper because you, in your book, "Sexpectations," you have a very interesting story that you start with. And it's the story of you ending up in a hotel room with a married man. Can you share that story and how it has affected you today?

Dr. Carol Tanksley: Yeah. Well, I was an adult. I was already in practice, and I did find myself alone in a hotel room with a married man. He had children. He and his wife were in a leadership position, frankly. And he said he wanted to come up to the room to pray. It was pretty soon obvious why he really wanted to come up there. But why was I there? I had never done anything like that. In the past, I had told myself, I wouldn't ever do that. So, that experience really rocked my inner world. I, at that point, was, in a sense, forced to deal with what was going on in my heart with my sexpectations, so to speak. I was forced to deal with the lies I had come to believe, the empty places in my own soul, the wounds that I had accumulated. Now, as God would have it in that hotel room, out of my mouth, came words that were from somewhere beyond me. "I can't do this. I must be about my Father's business." Out, he left. My clothes did not come off. That was a miraculous rescue. But my inner world was so rocked that I had to deal with those things. Myself. Again, I knew all the facts. I was an OBGYN physician. I was actually getting involved into ministry things, and I knew God. So, what got me into that position? So, I had to deal with that. With myself in my story. The next time I found myself alone in a hotel room with a married man, that man was my husband. And I believe that was because I had dealt with those places in my heart and then God brought my loving husband into my life. How has that impacted me today? It first gave me a measure of understanding about the empty places that we all have in our souls. It's not just about saying what's right or wrong, what's on the setlist or not on the setlist, as important as that is, and it is important. But just white knuckling it and trying harder to do or not do the right things doesn't deal with that master switch in our brain. The matters of the heart. And so, it just shone a bright spotlight on the matters in my heart. And I believe that was part of what God needed me to understand, so that I can help other people address the matters in their heart.

Twanna Henderson: That's good. That is so important. Because unless we really deal with the matters of our heart, we don't get to the core of what we need to really address. What have you come to know about God and about who God is as a result of your journey? Around relationships and around sexuality?

Dr. Carol Tanksley: Yeah. I love that question, Twanna. I've learned a lot about God as someone who cares, as someone who is more interested in who we are becoming than even specific acts. I've learned that as grateful as I am for forgiveness, thank God through Jesus, we can be forgiven. But there's a sense in which that's not enough. He is more interested in our process of transformation.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Dr. Carol Tanksley: I've learned to see how God is a God of intimacy. And, as I processed some of this stuff in my own heart, God helped me see that he himself is the originator of intimacy. Think of what we know about God. We know God the Father, Jesus the Word, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, are together in eternity past, infinite, and so close that we are told to think of him as one God. Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the Lord is one, and he is. He is one God with three persons. We might say that God, in himself, experiences and demonstrates infinite intimacy. When God created us as human beings in His image, God could not create us in his image without building within us the need, the desire, and the capacity for intimacy. That is part of what being made in the image of God looks like. We are embodied physical beings. And so, as physical beings, God intended sex between husband and wife in marriage to be an earthly object lesson of the intimacy he experiences and that he wants with us. But that is the object lesson. The real core is intimacy. Sex and intimacy God intended to be connected in marriage, but they are not the same. Every human being, regardless of age, gender, or relationship status, needs intimacy. You can live without sex. You can thrive without sex. And frankly, that's one of the lies that culture has promoted that you have to have a happy sex life to be a whole, fully alive human. No. Jesus demonstrated that you don't. For example: the most fully alive human being ever to live, never had sex and never was married. So, we can certainly thrive without sex, but we need intimacy. Jesus did. What did that look like for Jesus? 24/7, 365 connection with his heavenly Father. Intimate, open every second. We need the same. And there is another sense in which that wasn't enough. If I can use that word, air quotes cautiously. For Jesus, he needed human beings. He needed people. So, for you, who is your Peter, James and John? Who, in your life, are you pursuing, knowing and being known seeing and being seen with? So, that's some of the things I've learned about God.

Twanna Henderson: Wow, that intimacy part is huge. I'm sure some people hearing you say, "You don't have to have sex", are probably saying thanks a lot. But it is. If you think about women who are in sex jobs, it's just a job. It's just something. But, in terms of intimacy and really growing deeper, it's not about the sex. I digress a little bit. I think about the movie, "Pretty Woman" and where she was a lady of the night and she told her friends, "Oh, you never kiss them." Because there's something that made it something that it wasn't. And because it created a sense of intimacy. And so, she had these boundaries, these lines, and I think we understand what it really means to develop an intimate relationship. It helps us to be able to really understand how we need to be with God.

Dr. Carol Tanksley: Yeah. I appreciate you mentioning that Twanna. It just gives me an opportunity to comment on how intimacy has gone wrong. You know, we've talked about what God created us for. But the moment sin entered, intimacy has gone wrong. What is the very first thing that human beings did the moment sin entered? They hid. Genesis 2:25, the man and his wife were naked, and they felt no shame. The meaning of the Hebrew there is not only were there no clothes on their bodies, but there were no coverings over their heart and mind and soul either. Two human beings, fully seeing and knowing each other. The moment sin enters, Adam and Eve are hiding in the bushes, covering themselves with fig leaves hiding. And how good we have gotten at hiding ever since the Garden of Eden. The enemy loves to assault us in this area, because our need for intimacy is the core of how God made us. And so, among the things the enemy has done, is confuse sex and intimacy. So many people think, "You know, if I'm going for sex, I get my need for intimacy filled." No. If you stop and reflect, there's plenty of sex going on with no intimacy. And frankly, there can be intimacy without sex as Jesus demonstrated. I also just want to say a word to those women who might say, "Thank God, you can thrive without sex." There are many women who are in marriages where sex has become a duty or an obligation or a harm to them. And I just want to say to those women who may be listening, my heart goes out to you. And that is not God's ideal. It is okay to pursue intimacy. God intended sex to bring husband and wife together. If sex is driving you apart, and your heart is developing resentment, you need to deal with the stuff. Sometimes, that's your stuff. Many times, it's the husband stuff. And I just want to say to the women, your sense in your heart is valid. And I want to honor that.

Dr. Carol Tanksley: Yeah, thank you for that. I think that is so important. And I hope everyone heard that your sense is valued. You need to really understand that and to own that. Now, this is so good. I know you've got a podcast as well. And it's called "Relationship Prescriptions." Real quick, what have been some of the favorite topics that you've discussed on that podcast? I've got to put that one in my list.

Dr. Carol Tanksley: Well, thanks Twanna. Yeah, I really enjoy doing that. And as I have just over the last couple of years, come to understand what God is putting in my heart and wanting to share and, frankly, seeing the response from others. Those who listen. It's around this area of intimacy and sexuality. Often, the ways it has been broken. So, I talk to a lot of women, some men and some couples and then experts about where intimacy has been broken and what God's plan to get out of that is. Whether it's porn, pornography, pornography addiction. Oftentimes, that may be a wife whose husband has been addicted to porn and her sense of betrayal. Sometimes, women struggle with this too. 1/3 of Christian women admit that porn is an issue for them. Whether it's sexless marriages, and how do we heal that. Whether it's a woman with a sexual past, that she acted badly out of her own pain. How do I find healing from that? Those are some of the topics that just resonate so much with people, and I just feel so honored to talk about.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, those are some great topics. And I want to ask you this. As we wrap up, I know you said that you married late. What you started off by talking about the sexual dysfunctions in your own home? How did you transition from those sexual dysfunctions to your own marriage and navigating through that?

Dr. Carol Tanksley: Yeah. Oh, such an important question. Thank you. God had a lot of cleaning up in my mind and soul to do. And he dealt with a lot of things before I ever got to dealing with the sexuality and intimacy part of me. I had to learn to take agency over my own mental health. I had to learn about spiritual warfare. And then, once I had dealt with some of that, and the episode I talked about in the hotel room, dealt with my expectations. When God did bring my husband into my life, I realized that I needed to deal at a even deeper level, specifically with the sexual part of me. And so, during several months, many months, before we married, I marinated in the Song of Songs, the Song of Solomon, just soaking my soul in what God intended loving sex between husband and wife to be. Because the sexual dysfunction in my brain was all about hurt and pain and brokenness. And I needed to build new pathways in my brain where I could connect with my husband, including connect sexually and be ready for that. And I did that for months. And my wedding night came. It was beautiful in every way. And we did have a loving, intimate, including sexually intimate marriage during the years that we were privileged to live together before my husband passed away. But I was grateful to have the opportunity to process those things, so that my wedding night could be good. And I will also say that I was in my 40s when I married. And here I am a woman who is an OBGYN physician. And by this time, I am also already in ministry, pursuing Doctor of Ministry training. I knew all this stuff. But there was still so much that the experience of sexually connecting with my husband that I had to learn. It wasn't so much head knowledge, because I have all the head knowledge. I had graduate degrees in it. But just the experience of walking that through. During the first, especially the first six months to a year, it was good. And yet, even as I reflect back now, I can see there were things I didn't know or understand that I learned actually living that way married with my husband over several months. And I was privileged to enjoy that journey. I know there are women where that has been a painful journey. And I just want to say wherever you are in this journey, it can get better from here.

Twanna Henderson: Amen. Amen. How can listeners connect with you Dr. Carol?

Dr. Carol Tanksley: Well, I think the place I would point women is to my "Sexpectations" website, "yoursexpectations.com." There's some free downloads there. I've got a devotional PDF download and a free quiz. You can also find out about my book, "Sexpectations." And there's also links there back to my primary website, "drcarolministries.com," where we have more, but the podcast episodes are there. Our podcast is also on YouTube, so you can search for us there. "Relationship Prescriptions," either audio or video. And I would love to connect with women. One of the things I enjoy doing is responding to people who write me. So the contact page there on our website, if you send a message using the Contact page, it comes to me confidentially. I respond personally, and I would be thrilled.

Twanna Henderson: Awesome. Well, that is good to know. I'm sure there are many listeners, some who are "Violets" or some who are "Simones" who may be struggling to make sense of their sexual story in light of their faith. Can you pray as we wrap up that we all get to a place of sexual wholeness?

Dr. Carol Tanksley: Oh, yes. Thank you. Oh, we pray right now, Heavenly Father, Lord Jesus, Holy Spirit. You see us. You see everything that has brought each one of us to where we are now. The things that have happened to us. The ways that we have responded. Some of those ways may have been good. Some may have been not so good at all. The broken places. The walled-off hiding places. All of that. You see where we are right now. You see the implications of all the things that have happened to us and that we've done. But, Lord, you also see where you are taking each one of us. You see the glorious woman that you originally created each one of us to be. In that one listening right now, you see, when you look at her, you see who you originally had in mind when you created her, and you haven't given up. But, Lord, I pray that each woman right now, feels your presence and feels you seeing and knowing her with honesty, yes, and with great compassion. Jesus, you are the place where all this stuff can be dealt with. And by your very presence, you bring us forward and onward to the path of transformation. The goodness, the glory that you originally planned for each one of us. And we thank you, we thank you. In Jesus' name. Amen.

Twanna Henderson: Amen Dr. Carol, thank you so much. Thank you for being the gift that you are to the body of Christ. We need this. "yoursexpectations.com" if you want to get the book, "Sexpectations." Awesome stuff. Thank you so much. To all of our listeners, thank you for joining us today. I'm Twanna Henderson. Be blessed of the Lord.